Do intellectual objects exist in the external world?
The nature of existence has plagued philosophers for eons. Physical
matter, external to our minds, appears self-evident. We see and feel
things, hear them, taste and smell them. We rely on our senses to
understand the nature of reality. It is no coincidence that the word
“sense” means both “a faculty by which the human body perceives an
external stimulus” and also “a judgment derived by reason”, as in “that
makes sense to me”. Claims that defy the senses do not make sense.
But is it enough to say that matter is self-evident? Or, as
immaterialist philosophers challenge, could not our sensory perception
of external reality be merely that – a perception? Is it “all in our
minds?” Can we prove the existence of matter? If so, how? And crucially
here, what happens if we then attempt the same proof for the existence
of intellectual objects? Do intellectual object really exist outside the
perception of each individual human mind?
Ludwig von Mises met and conquered the existentialist challenge with praxeology – the logic of human action.
The starting point of praxeology is a self-evident truth, the
cognition of action, that is, the cognition of the fact that there is
such a thing as consciously aiming at ends. [1]
The Mises Test of External Reality
A thing is real if it can condition the outcome of human events.
Humans act purposefully. To deny this would be a performative
contradiction, since the act of denial is purposeful. Only humans can
deny, so a denial of human action would actually represent a denial of
one’s own humanity, an impossibility. It is literally undeniable that
humans act purposefully. Mises then applies that fact to the question of
material existence, in “Human Action”, and a section titled “The
Reality of the External World”:
From the praxeological point of view it is not possible to question
the real existence of matter, of physical objects and of the external
world. Their reality is revealed by the fact that man is not omnipotent.
There is in the world something that offers resistance to the
realization of his wishes and desires. Any attempt to remove by a mere
fiat what annoys him and to substitute a state of affairs that suits him
better for a state of affairs that suits him less is vain. If he wants
to succeed, he must proceed according to methods that are adjusted to
the structure of something about which perception provides him with some
information. We may define the external world as the totality of all
those things and events that determine the feasibility or unfeasibility,
the success or failure, of human action.[2]
Clearly, intellectual objects can meet Mises’ conception of “things”
in the “external world”, because they can affect the success or failure
of people’s goals. For example, consider a book about automobile
repairs. The know-how contained in the book may have a major impact on
whether someone can successfully replace their carburetor, or just makes
a bigger mess of things. Mises continues making the case for external
reality:
The much discussed question whether physical objects can or cannot be
conceived as existing independently of the mind is vain. For thousands
of years the minds of physicians did not perceive germs and did not
divine their existence. But the success or failure of their endeavors to
preserve their patients’ health and lives depended on the way germs
influenced or did not influence the functioning of the patients’ bodily
organs. The germs were real because they conditioned the outcome of
events either by interfering or by not interfering, either by being
present in or by being absent from the field.[3]
From this we can derive “The Mises Test of External Reality”. A thing
is real if it can condition the outcome of human events. We ask whether
the thing may interfere or not interfere with some human endeavor,
depending on whether it is present in the situation or not. Note that
“present” does not necessarily mean physically present. Indeed,
Mises’ approach was to deliberately ignore physicality in proving the
existence of the world external to the human mind.
To run the test, let’s insert the Beatles song “Hey Jude” into Mises’ example:
The much discussed question whether intellectual objects can or
cannot be conceived as existing independently of the mind is vain. For
thousands of years the minds of musicians did not perceive the
combination of words and melody the defines the song “Hey Jude”. But the
success or failure of their endeavors to entertain audiences depended
on the way the music did or did not influence the emotional functioning
of the listeners. “Hey Jude” is real because it conditioned the outcome
of events either by interfering or by not interfering, either by being
present in or by being absent from the field.
Does “Hey Jude” condition the outcome of human events? I don’t refer
to any specific physical instance of Hey Jude, rather I refer to the
underlying pattern of language that defines the song itself. Suppose
Paul McCartney had written the song differently, with a different
melody, and different words. Would the outcome have been different? Yes,
the outcome would have been different.
The Beatles recorded hundreds of songs, including “Old Brown Shoe”
which immediately succeeded “Hey Jude” on the original album release.
“Old Brown Shoe” was not nearly successful at entertaining listeners as
was “Hey Jude”. Had “Hey Jude” been more poorly written, fewer people
would have recommended it to their friends, fewer radio stations would
have played it, and its overall influence would have been less.
“Old Brown Shoe” had the same physical manifestation as did “Hey
Jude”, because they were both embodied in the same original album. Yet
something about the pattern of information in “Hey Jude” conditioned
human events in a way that “Old Brown Shoe” did not. An intellectual
creation has the ability to condition the outcome of human events,
passes the Mises test, and therefore is a real thing.
By contracting, humans act as though IP exists
We know that intellectual objects exist because people act as though they exist.
In particular, people voluntarily contract to buy and sell intellectual
objects, such as movies, songs, games, and software. One may only
contract with that which is one’s own property. If intellectual objects
cannot be property, then we simply cannot make any sort of contract
about them at all.
People voluntarily agree to buy and sell things like movies, songs,
games and software. By contracting, people demonstrate their belief and
understanding that the pattern of information that defines the
intellectual object is rightful property. And overwhelmingly, people are
satisfied with the intellectual content that they purchase.
Imagine a world in which sellers are allowed to defraud buyers about
the intellectual content of their goods. This would seem to be a
decidedly non-libertarian situation. When customers buy intellectual
objects, we must ask what exactly it is they value. Obviously, it is the pattern of information, not the physical container.
Suppose I go online and order a DVD of the movie “Thor”. I pay the
agreed price, and a few days later a DVD arrives at my house. But
instead of “Thor”, it features reruns of “Gilligan’s Island”. Do I have a
legitimate complaint against the company that sold me the DVD? After
all, I ordered a DVD, and I got a DVD. The only difference between what I
contracted for and what I received is the pattern of 1’s and 0’s
encoded into the disc. In other words, the only distinction is the IP.
The physical property is identical, except for the pattern. In some
technical sense, the two discs could be said to be physically different,
but such would be completely irrelevant to human action. The only
humanly meaningful distinction between the two discs is the pattern of
information encoded. My satisfaction as a customer depends entirely on
the pattern of information I received, and nothing else.
In the above example, obviously, I have a legitimate complaint
against the seller of the DVD. The only theoretical basis for such
complaints is to assert a property right in the pattern of information
stored on a disc. Only property can be the subject of contract, one
cannot make contracts regarding that which one does not own.
Doesn’t IP require a physical container?
It is true but irrelevant that intellectual objects require physical
containers to be delivered. A movie arrives on a DVD or Blu-Ray disc,
computer software lives on your hard drive. But this does not mean that
only the physical object can be owned, as the IP opponents would have
it.
To demonstrate the physical differences between the two discs are
completely irrelevant, let’s consider a different hypothetical. Suppose I
go online and purchase a vacuum cleaner. Inside the vacuum cleaner is a
motor, and on the motor is a sticker that contains information about
the date of manufacture and so forth. Suppose I learn that the motor was
installed on a Tuesday, but I hate Tuesdays because it reminds me of
September 11.
Assuming the vacuum cleaner sucks up dirt correctly, do I have a
legitimate complaint against the company that sold me the vacuum? After
all, the pattern of information within the device is different than I
would prefer. In some technical sense, there is a physical difference
between a vacuum cleaner with “Tuesday” versus “Wednesday” on the motor
label. But such is irrelevant to human action. I have contracted to buy a
vacuum cleaner, and its use is to suck dirt up off my floor. I did not
contract regarding the pattern of information.
Concluding remarks on the Mises test
The fundamental point of the Mises test is to consider human
relevance. The same one pattern of information can be embodied on many
different types of physical media. And it is the pattern, not the
physical media, that matters. In this light, patterns of information
must be considered real, and ownable.
You have shown that information is real, that different sorts of
information can be distinguished from each other, and that information
is a good. You have not shown that it is rivalrous or ownable in the
practical sense (as opposed to the sense in which one can create
arbitrary enforcement mechanisms so that we can pretend it is ownable in
the usual way).
(I think your analysis has another problem, but I’ll save that for after I see how you deal with my objection above.)
Quoting from the last sentence, “patterns of information must be considered real, and ownable.”
You have made the case for “real.” You said nothing to support your conclusion of “ownable.”
Hmmm, should have made a note, I forgot my additional point.
“It is true but irrelevant that intellectual objects require physical
containers to be delivered. A movie arrives on a DVD or Blu-Ray disc,
computer software lives on your hard drive. But this does not mean that
only the physical object can be owned, as the IP opponents would have
it.”
Shouldn’t you produce an argument or explanation why this is the
case? Is the vacuum cleaner story supposed to help me understand why you
believe this? I don’t see the connection.
Are you saying “it is real, so it can be owned?” If so, why not own ideas, math, etc.?
Or maybe I just don’t get it? I need help to understand how your
vacuum cleaner story relates to the conclusion you want to draw. Usually
I understand your point and either agree or disagree. This I just don’t
understand.
“intellectually dishonest”
Say for the sake of argument that I agree and wish to mend my ways.
How would you have me honestly express my confusion regarding the
connection between the vacuum cleaner story and the conclusion that I
quoted?
Imagine a scenario. A tells B, “come to my backyard to see the
unicorn I have there.” B deduces that A is crazy or has evil intent, and
refuses. Has the unicorn conditioned the outcome?
I am trying to understand better what it means to condition the outcome of human events.
Dave, being real is one necessary element of rightful property, but not the only one.
Please review the definitions of intellectual space, matter, object,
and property I have given them to you previously, and they describe the
conditions under which intangible goods are / are not rightful property.
http://homesteadip.liberty.me/2014/05/26/definitions-of-key-terms/
Intellectual matter – that which can be understood through language
Intellectual object – an ascertainable, temporally stable and bounded
pattern of intellectual matter which can condition the outcome of human
events
Intellectual property – a non-trivial, homesteaded rivalrous
intellectual object that substantially functions as productive capacity
Ideas:
“Non-trivial”, yes, at least some. Not really sure what counts as trivial here.
“Homesteaded”, yes.
“Rivalrous”, yes, IF we use Alexander’s approach (100% of production).
“Intellectual object”, yes.
“Substantially functions as productive capacity”, depends on what we mean by “substantially”?
All production requires the use of numerous ideas. Maybe Alexander
should be paying royalties to the heirs of the guy who invented the
major scale, etc. Or maybe his non-standard use of the word “rivalrous”
is a problem?
Homesteading property (physical or intellectual) requires
transforming raw matter into usefulness, with borders sufficiently clear
to distinguish the object from its surroundings, and sufficiently
complex so as to be non trivial.
Asking how we separate ideas from songs is like asking how we
separate “iron” from “a bicycle factory made of iron”. There is no end
to the amount of raw material ( iron or language). By taking the raw
material and transforming it into a useful good ( a factory or a song)
one has homesteaded, and is the rightful owner of the object created,
and rightly made exclude others from its use.
“Homesteading property (physical or intellectual) requires[...]”
Are you saying ideas are all trivial? Or have unclear borders? Can’t ideas be homesteaded?
“Asking how we separate ideas from songs is like asking how we separate “iron” from “a bicycle factory made of iron”. ”
Okay, so how do we separate “iron” from “a bicycle factory made of iron?”
Why is an idea raw material and not a producer good? Even so, raw
materials are also property and can be owned. Ore in the ground can be
owned. The factory producer must own the iron used to construct the
factory. Why is this analogy more apt that say, a ton of iron and a
bicycle factory made of iron?
“There is no end to the amount of raw material ( iron or language).”
Not sure how this is relevant.
“By taking the raw material and transforming it into a useful good ( a
factory or a song) one has homesteaded, and is the rightful owner of
the object created, and rightly made exclude others from its use.”
Why would this not apply when the resulting useful good is an idea? Ideas are not useful? They are not goods?
Honestly Dave, you’re pretending to not know the difference
between iron lying dormant in a hillside, versus iron that has been
transformed into a factory.
Either you’re trolling, or unintelligent. Either way . . .
Forgive me for failing to make myself clear. I didn’t say there
was no difference, I just want you to state the difference in a way that
makes the analogy work. You say ideas should not be owned but songs
should. I asked why, you gave this analogy which actually does not work.
We are talking about ownership. Iron ore can be owned. Iron can be
owned. Factories made of iron can be owned. Songs can be owned. Ideas
cannot be owned. Please explain.
There is iron in a hillside. There is iron at the center of the
earth. There is iron on mars. There is iron on some planet in a galaxy
100,000 light years away. There is an infinite amount of iron in
existence. Truly infinite. And it is unowned. Iron only becomes owned
when it is transformed from raw matter into usefulness.
Individual words and ideas cannot be owned because they are trivial,
as I’ve explained. Similarly, some specks of dirt on the bottom of your
shoe cannot be owned. They are trivial.
At what point does an object (physical or intellectual) become
sufficiently useful enough to warrant property rights? It’s a great
question, and applies equally to all forms of property.
“Iron only becomes owned when it is transformed from raw matter into usefulness.”
The current system assigns ownership of mineral rights before the ore
is mined, before anyone knows whether there is anything there or not.
So, what was your point? That ideas are like the infinite iron in
existence which you claim is unowned? What about the ideas that have
been written down and used to build things or make new ideas or
accomplish things or predict things or argue against things? Are you
saying that the ideas in Mises’ Human Action, that you used to develop
your test, have not been homesteaded?
“Individual words and ideas cannot be owned because they are trivial, as I’ve explained.”
I must’ve missed it. Hmmm, quick google search turns up nothing, a few uses of “non-trivial”. Maybe you can provide a link?
“At what point does an object (physical or intellectual) become
sufficiently useful enough to warrant property rights? It’s a great
question, and applies equally to all forms of property.”
So calculus is too trivial, unimportant, and useless to bother with,
but your songs are not? Geometry? Addition and subtraction? Evolution?
The big bang? {brain explodes}
Calculus is raw matter. The English language is raw matter. Iron
is raw matter. Aluminum is raw mater. The moon is raw matter. The
concepts conveyed in “Human Action” are raw matter.
The exact pattern of information that comprises the words of “Human
Action” is a homesteaded producer good. Do you see the difference? I can
express concepts and ideas about love and forgiveness in a song. Those
ideas and concepts are not copyrightable. The exact pattern of words and
notes in my song is copyrightable.
You can discuss “Human Action” in your own words. You can write your
own book about praxeology. But you can’t copy “Human Action” without
permission.
I certainly don’t support statism, but our current system
demonstrates that we can make these distinctions. Not perfectly, but
well enough. I’m quite sure the free market could do a better job.
“The exact pattern of words and notes in my song is copyrightable.”
It can’t be quite as clear-cut as this, or Harrison would never have
lost the “My Sweet Lord/He’s so Fine” lawsuit. You’re not going to let
me off the hook if I change only one word, or even all of them, if the
music is still recognizable. Do you cut samplers and mash-up artists
slack if they use only a part of your pattern and combine it with new
patterns?
Is a novel that steals the plot of a previous book plagiarism only if it contains perfectly quoted passages?
Mathematical theorems are often published as exact patterns. Then a
new theorem may apply an old theorem as a single step. That step is an
abbreviation of the full pattern. In effect, the new theorem contains
all of the old theorem, all those steps are required and would have
needed to be developed independently if the old theorem did not already
exist.
“The concepts conveyed in “Human Action” are raw matter. The exact
pattern of information that comprises the words of “Human Action” is a
homesteaded producer good. Do you see the difference?”
I see, but does it make sense? I can take the “raw matter” of Mises’s
book and make my own, without violating copyright. How much more did
Harrison need to change “He’s so Fine” to cross the line to safety?
Dave, you are absolutely correct. Drawing property lines in
intellectual space requires arbitrary judgments. So does drawing
property lines in physical space.
For just 2 of many examples, look up “Easement” and “Adverse Possession”.
After how many days (weeks, years) does trespassing establish an easement?
Adverse possession must be “open and notorious”. What does that mean?
Can land be abandoned, thus returning to un-owned status? How much
time constitutes abandoned? What constitutes “use” of the land anyway?
How much land is allowable for a “setback”? 5 feet? 500 feet? 500 miles?
How deep to land rights go? 5 feet? To the center of the earth?
Etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc
But what is the model that the arbitrary judgements are patching
up? It sounds indistinguishable from a sort of platonic realm of ideas,
where a song or a novel or whatever is a point in idea space, which can
be projected into copyrightable pattern space in many different ways
(arrangements, notations, formats, media, etc.) But then there is no
difference between me using a sample from your song in my mashup and a
mathematician using one of Euclid’s theorems or Rorty riffing on
Foucault. Copyright deals with the pattern, but a totally different
pattern can infringe. It is the object in idea space that is the same.
A “totally different pattern” does not infringe. When you sample
my song, then mix you own material in, my exact pattern is contained
within the emerging pattern. The infringement only involves the use of
my pattern.
The analogy is building a new structure, partly on your own land, but partly on my land.
Not that it matters, but we don’t actually know how many spatial
dimensions exist. Our current best guess is 10 (see string theory).
‘A “totally different pattern” does not infringe. ‘
What counts as the pattern? I could take an MP3 of your song, play
it, record the playback, make a new MP3 with bad quality, but still it
would be identifiable as your song, so a violation of copyright. But
none of the digital encoding in the files will match. Or is that not the
pattern that is copyrighted? Is the pattern something I can see, or
does it also exist only in intellectual space?
Hard to think of how to do this with a novel. If I went through and
paraphrased every sentence in the book, changed Harry Potter to Barry
Hotter, and Hogwarts to Warthogs, would it infringe or not? Some authors
threaten lawsuits against fan authors who appropriate characters or
settings. Hmmm…
What counts as the bicycle? I could take a bicycle of yours, ride
it, bend up the frame, file off the serial numbers, but still it would
be identifiable as your bike, so a violation property laws. But none of
the serial numbers will match. Or is that not the bicycle that is owned?
Is the bicycle something I can understand, or does it also exist only
in physcial space?
Maybe I’m being unclear again. The bad copy of the song infringes
the copyright. But where is the pattern? Because it infringes, it must
have the same pattern. But the MP3 encoding is unrecognizable, so that
is not the pattern. How do we find it?
You didn’t like the idea of considering an MP3 as a method for
reproducing the sound of a performance of a song. But maybe it works
better? Instead of copyrighting the MP3 file, you copyright the sound
waves produced by the MP3 file? Maybe a frequency analysis of the two
recordings would reveal the similarity our minds detect. Of course, that
wouldn’t be true for a new recording of a different performance of the
song with a different arrangement, though it would still infringe.
Dave, you’re now asking what types of evidence support a legal
finding in a property dispute. The answer includes, but is not limited
to, expert testimony.
Suppose a construction company built a structure and sold it to you,
with the understanding that it is engineered to be earthquake resistant.
A 5.4 magnitude earthquake occurs 40 miles away, and the structure
sustains $100,000 worth of damage. Who is liable for that repair, you or
the construction company?
You question whether the structure was or was not built according to
specs. Your X-Ray analysis shows a fracture along the 15XJN beam of 5.4
centimeters, and your expert says this proves poor design.
The construction company does ultrasound analysis and shows something else. Their expert says the building was designed well.
OK? We have the same kinds of technical problems with physical property.
I’m trying to understand intellectual space, not that other stuff.
The thing that gets copyrighted is a physical object, an MP3, or sheet
music, a CD, something like that. The encoding on that physical object
identifies one or more objects in intellectual space, depending on
whether it infringes or uses samples or whatever. Any physical instance
of the song is a projection of the song from intellectual space into
real space. Given a song in real space, we can project back into
intellectual space and identify the song, songs, or song fragments that
it represents.
But the dimensions are still a problem. We could normalize tempo and
key, things like that, so that the same song played in a different key
and tempo still maps to the same shape. Hm, if I play your song
backwards, is that the same shape in intellectual space? Or if I divide
it up into time slices and randomize the play order? Should that map to
the same shape? Listening to the performance would definitely be a
different experience, some ints lost and new things added. So
intersecting but not identical.
Real space has a limited number of dimensions, and they are all
deterministically correlated, so it makes sense to talk about a point in
space, or a sphere, and moving from point to point, defining boundaries
between areas, and an object occupying space. If I make a mash-up or
use sampling, I can trespass on 17 different properties in 17 widely
separated locations in intellectual space at the same time. At the same
time, I have homesteaded (though illegitimately perhaps) a new region of
intellectual space. The intellectual space analogy just doesn’t hold
up. It is incoherent, forced, works only for easy cases.
Intellectual space has a limited number of dimensions, and they
are all deterministically correlated, so it makes sense to talk about a
point in intellectual space, or a sphere, and moving from point to
point, defining boundaries between areas, and an object occupying space.
If my agents trespass or build structures on others land, I (through my
agents) can trespass on 17 different properties in 17 widely separated
locations in physical space at the same time. At the same time, I have
homesteaded (though illegitimately perhaps) a new structure in physical
space.
The intellectual space analogy thus does hold up, as I’ve
demonstrated by editing your hypothetical. It is coherent, well thought
out, and works well in theory, as well as the real world.
Next.
Maybe I don’t understand. Are you just saying intellectual space
is not continuous? Or diminesionless? How can a single object occupy 17
different places, and not occupy the space in between the 17?
My song exists at a unique location in intellectual space.
Visualize it as 3D space, because that is humanly relevant (all that
matters). 17 people can trespass on my property, if they are
disrespectful and cruel enough to do so.
The first to project a song from intellectual space to real space
is the homesteader. Others who follow without permission are
trespassers, Those who project a song using all or part of the
homesteaded song with permission are guests or tenants. Okay, that
works.
The nature of existence has plagued philosophers for eons.
Physical matter, external to our minds, appears self-evident. We see and feel
things, hear them, taste and smell them. We rely on our senses to understand
the nature of reality. It is no coincidence that the word “sense” means both “a
faculty by which the human body perceives an external stimulus” and also “a
judgment derived by reason”, as in “that makes sense to me”. Claims that defy
the senses do not make sense.
<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>
But is it enough to say that matter is self-evident? Or, as
existentialists challenge, could not our sensory perception of external reality
be merely that – a perception? Is it “all in our minds?” Can we prove the
existence of matter? If so, how? And crucially here, what happens if we then
attempt the same proof for the existence of intellectual objects? Do
intellectual object really exist outside the perception of each individual
human mind?
<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>
Ludwig von Mises met and conquered the existentialist
challenge with praxeology – the logic of human action.
<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>
The starting point of praxeology is a self-evident truth, the
cognition of action, that is, the cognition of the fact that there is such a
thing as consciously aiming at ends. <![if !supportFootnotes]>[1]<![endif]>
A thing is real if it can condition the outcome of human
events.
<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>
Humans act purposefully. To deny this
would be a performative contradiction, since the act of denial is purposeful.
Only humans can deny, so a denial of human action would actually represent a
denial of one’s own humanity, an impossibility. It is literally undeniable that
humans act purposefully.Mises
then applies that fact to the question of material existence, in “Human
Action”, anda section titled “The
Reality of the External World”:
<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>
From the praxeological point of view it is not possible to
question the real existence of matter, of physical objects and of the external
world. Their reality is revealed by the fact that man is not omnipotent. There
is in the world something that offers resistance to the realization of his
wishes and desires. Any attempt to remove by a mere fiat what annoys him and to
substitute a state of affairs that suits him better for a state of affairs that
suits him less is vain. If he wants to succeed, he must proceed according to
methods that are adjusted to the structure of something about which perception
provides him with some information. We may define the external world as the
totality of all those things and events that determine the feasibility or
unfeasibility, the success or failure, of human action.<![if !supportFootnotes]>[2]<![endif]>
<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>
Clearly, intellectual objects can meet
Mises’ conception of “things” in the “external world”, because they can affect
the success or failure of people’s goals. For example, consider a book about
automobile repairs. The know-how contained in the book may have a major impact
on whether someone can successfully replace their carburetor, or just makes a bigger
mess of things. Mises continues making the case for external reality:
<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>
The much discussed question whether physical objects can or
cannot be conceived as existing independently of the mind is vain. For
thousands of years the minds of physicians did not perceive germs and did not
divine their existence. But the success or failure of their endeavors to
preserve their patients' health and lives depended on the way germs influenced
or did not influence the functioning of the patients' bodily organs. The germs
were real because they conditioned the outcome of events either by interfering
or by not interfering, either by being present in or by being absent from the
field.<![if !supportFootnotes]>[3]<![endif]>
<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>
From this we can derive “The Mises Test of External
Reality”. A thing is real if it can condition the outcome of human events. We
ask whether the thing may interfere or not interfere with some human endeavor,
depending on whether it is present in the situation or not. Note that “present”
does not necessarily mean physically
present. Indeed, Mises’ approach was to deliberately ignore physicality in
proving the existence of the world external to the human mind.
<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>
To run the test, let’s insert the
Beatles song “Hey Jude” into Mises’ example:
<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>
The much discussed question whether intellectual objects can or
cannot be conceived as existing independently of the mind is vain. For
thousands of years the minds of musicians did not perceive the combination of
words and melody the defines the song“Hey Jude”. But the success or failure of their endeavors to entertain
audiences depended on the way the music did or did not influence the emotional
functioning of the listeners. “Hey Jude” is real because it conditioned the
outcome of events either by interfering or by not interfering, either by being
present in or by being absent from the field.
<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>
Does “Hey Jude” condition the outcome of
human events? I don’t refer to any specific physical instance of Hey Jude,
rather I refer to the underlying pattern of language that defines the song
itself. Suppose Paul McCartney had written the song differently, with a
different melody, and different words. Would the outcome have been different?
Yes, the outcome would have been different.
<![if !supportEmptyParas]> <![endif]>
The Beatles recorded hundreds of songs,
including “Old Brown Shoe” which immediately succeeded “Hey Jude” on the
original album release. “Old Brown Shoe” was not nearly successful at
entertaining listeners as was “Hey Jude”. Had “Hey Jude” been more poorly
written, fewer people would have recommended it to their friends, fewer radio
stations would have played it, and its overall influence would have been less.
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“Old Brown Shoe” had the same physical
manifestation as did “Hey Jude”, because they were both embodied in the same
original album. Yet something about the pattern of information in “Hey Jude”
conditioned human events in a way that “Old Brown Shoe” did not. An
intellectual creation has the ability to condition the outcome of human events,
passes the Mises test, and therefore is a real thing.
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By contracting, humans act as though IP exists
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We know that
intellectual objects exist because people act as though they exist. In particular, people voluntarily contract to buy
and sell intellectual objects, such as movies, songs, games, and software. One
may only contract with that which is one’s own property. If intellectual
objects cannot be property, then we simply cannot make any sort of contract
about them at all.
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People voluntarily agree to buy and sell things like movies,
songs, games and software. By contracting, people demonstrate their belief and
understanding that the pattern of information that defines the intellectual
object is rightful property. And overwhelmingly, people are satisfied with the
intellectual content that they purchase.
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Imagine a world in which sellers are allowed to defraud
buyers about the intellectual content of their goods. This would seem to be a
decidedly non-libertarian situation. When customers buy intellectual objects,
we must ask what exactly it is they
value. Obviously, it is the pattern of information, not the physical container.
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Suppose I go online and order a DVD of the movie “Thor”. I
pay the agreed price, and a few days later a DVD arrives at my house. But
instead of “Thor”, it features reruns of “Gilligan’s Island”. Do I have a
legitimate complaint against the company that sold me the DVD? After all, I
ordered a DVD, and I got a DVD. The only difference between what I contracted
for and what I received is the pattern of 1’s and 0’s encoded into the disc. In
other words, the only distinction is the IP.
The physical property is identical, except for the pattern. In some technical
sense, the two discs could be said to be physically different, but such would
be completely irrelevant to human action. The only humanly meaningful
distinction between the two discs is the pattern of information encoded. My
satisfaction as a customer depends entirely on the pattern of information I
received, and nothing else.
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In the above example, obviously, I have a legitimate
complaint against the seller of the DVD. The only theoretical basis for such
complaints is to assert a property right in the pattern of information stored
on a disc. Only property can be the subject of contract, one cannot make
contracts regarding that which one does not own.
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Doesn’t IP require a physical container?
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It is true but irrelevant that intellectual objects require
physical containers to be delivered. A movie arrives on a DVD or Blu-Ray disc,
computer software lives on your hard drive. But this does not mean that only
the physical object can be owned, as the IP opponents would have it.
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To demonstrate the physical differences between the two
discs are completely irrelevant, let’s consider a different hypothetical.Suppose I go online and purchase a
vacuum cleaner. Inside the vacuum cleaner is a motor, and on the motor is a
sticker that contains information about the date of manufacture and so forth.
Suppose I learn that the motor was installed on a Tuesday, but I hate Tuesdays
because it reminds me of September 11.
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Assuming the vacuum cleaner sucks up dirt correctly, do I
have a legitimate complaint against the company that sold me the vacuum? After
all, the pattern of information within the device is different than I would
prefer. In some technical sense, there is a physical difference between a
vacuum cleaner with “Tuesday” versus “Wednesday” on the motor label. But such
is irrelevant to human action. I have contracted to buy a vacuum cleaner, and
its use is to suck dirt up off my floor. I did not contract regarding the
pattern of information.
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Concluding remarks on the Mises test
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The fundamental point of the Mises test is to consider human
relevance. The same one pattern of information can be embodied on many
different types of physical media. And it is the pattern, not the physical
media, that matters. In this light, patterns of information must be considered
real, and ownable.
For what it's worth, I think you're grasping at straws here. In the Mises example about germs being real and affecting us even when humans didn't know they existed, the key element there is that we didn't have to know about them to be affected by them. If "Hey Jude" had been recorded but then filed away and never played live, besides those involved in the writing and recording of it, it would have had no affect on mankind in general. As it is, it certainly didn't affect everyone who did hear it in the same way (my Mom, aged 81, has never had any interest in such music) and probably doesn't affect anyone the same way every time they hear it, if it affects them at all. A brick wall affects humans exactly the same way each time they try to walk through it barring any intermediate alteration of said wall. Denying the existence of the wall is senseless. Denying the existence of microorganisms that are proven to be part of the human organism is senseless. An instance of a song on disk, CD, vinyl or tape can be said to exist in that if any one of those media is physically removed from your possession, the instance of the song will go with it. An instance of that same song in someones memory could also be said to exist and if replayed in memory could invoke the same emotional response as the first time it was experienced or it might generate a different response. It could also be altered in memory so that eventually it would not be an exact replica of the original track. My point is that existence does not necessarily qualify anything as an item of property. I intend to keep following your discussion on intellectual space so we'll see where this leads.
Mises asked us to consider whether a thing would interfere or not interfere, either by being present or being absent from the field. If "Hey Jude" had been stored away and hidden, it would have been "absent from the field", and the result on human affairs would have been different. This proves, rather than refutes, my point.
To make your point, you would need to argue that it would make no difference whether "Hey Jude" had been released or not.
You observation that an intellectual object must be known to make a difference is correct, but your conclusion does not follow. When something is "known" it is "intellectually present". To matter, an intellectual object must be intellectually present, just as a physical object must be physically present.
You're correct that existence itself does not qualify a thing as property. The essentials of property are existence, utility, control, rivalry.
I'm surprised you didn't apply your usual "lets test this rule"
* Assertion: If IP doesn't exist, then IP is not relevant to morality. * Rule: If X doesn't exist, then X is not relevant to morality. * Applied: If Ownership/Property doesn't exist, then Ownership/Property is not relevant to morality.
Obviously this requires some definition of "exist," but suspending disbelief we'll adopt the "Kinsella definition" and say "exists means physical atomic substance."
Lets say we look at some item of "physical property" like a hammer. Only examining the hammer, how does one determine the owner? Is there any meta-data in the atomic structure that would help us identify whether the "true" owner is either Person-A or Person-B? Obviously, there is not. The object is physical, but the property/ownership is not physical.
* Conclusion: PropertyTherefore property & ownership doesn't exist, and is irrelevant to morality?
Unless Kinsella has some "possession theory of property" (at which point he's merely say "is" not "ought"), this contradicts his own proposed ethic.
Louigi, yes, your take is very useful, thank you. I understand your argument. You are saying that only physical matter exists, and since intangible "objects" do not exist, there cannot be a property right in them.
This is precisely the position some existentialist and nihilist philosophers have taken with regard to physical matter, and exactly the reason why Mises chose to address the problem with praxeology, rather than trying to prove existence through some other means.
Yes, obviously intangible things do not exist physically, by definition. Obviously, if you assume that a thing must exist physically to rightly be property, then intangible things cannot be property, by definition. One can easily define any term in such a way as to "prove" or "disprove" anything, and this is mere semantic masturbation.
My question for you is this: why did Mises choose to address the problem of existence, and why did he conclude that existence is best shown by human relevance?
"Yes, obviously intangible things do not exist physically, by definition."
Sir, I don't get it. What do you mean - do not exist physically? I am not aware there are any other forms of existence but physical existence.
Intangible objects is a nonsensical concept is what I am trying to say. There is no such thing in the world.
"My question for you is this: why did Mises choose to address the problem of existence, and why did he conclude that existence is best shown by human relevance?"
Mises says himself, in the quotes you use, that "From the praxeological point of view it is not possible to question the real existence of matter, of physical objects and of the external world."
Which is very true. Human action is not physics.
Notice, however - and this is important! - nowhere does he speak of non-material objects! Yes, music influences people, sure. It does not mean it is immaterial! It means that it is real, sure, but I don't question that.
You say you understand my argument. Well, I hope so. But some things you say puzzle me as they in fact show that maybe I am still not clear enough.
You say, "Obviously, if you assume that a thing must exist physically to rightly be property, then intangible things cannot be property, by definition."
I have said it in the audio record above and I will repeat it for the last time here. I do NOT say that a thing must exist physically to rightly be property. Do you understand?
I am saying that there are ONLY physical things in the world, period. Intangible things cannot be property or non-property for the reason that intangible things do not exist in the world. There is no such thing as an intangible object - this is what I am saying.
If I had proof that intangible things do exist - perhaps I would think they also can be property, who knows.
We shall label your philosophy "intellectual existentialism". For the third time (at least), I ask you to answer:
Why did Ludwig von Mises choose to address the problem of existence, and why did he conclude that human relevance was the best proof?
Suppose there is 100 tons of gold in the center of a huge mountain somewhere. As long as it is buried deep, it might as well not exist. In any humanly relevant sense, it DOES NOT exist, because whether it is "really there" or not makes no difference whatsoever to humans.
In my previous post I have replied to you. Maybe I was not clear enough.
Mises does this because, and I quote him, "From the praxeological point of view it is not possible to question the real existence of matter, of physical objects and of the external world."
So the only way praxeology as a science of human action can know things are real in the realm of human action is whether they affect it.
"Suppose there is 100 tons of gold in the center of a huge mountain somewhere. As long as it is buried deep, it might as well not exist. In any humanly relevant sense, it DOES NOT exist, because whether it is "really there" or not makes no difference whatsoever to humans."
Correct. From a praxeological point of view, is not possible to question the real existence of matter, physical objects and of the external world.
From a praxeological point of view, is not possible to question the real existence of intellectual matter, intellectual objects and of the external world.
You deny of the existence of intangible things, and claim that only physical things exist. Prove it. Prove that matter exists outside our human perception. Different thinkers have attacked that problem in different ways, but the approach that satisfies me is the one taken by Mises and the Austrian School.
Alexander, do you have any experience with epistemology, logical fallacies, that kind of stuff? This is not meant as an offense or anything, I am simply asking what your experience in these matters is.
"You deny of the existence of intangible things, and claim that only physical things exist. Prove it."
This is called "shifting the burden of proof", also known as argument from ignorance. This is a logical fallacy. But if you have not wrestled with these concepts before - which is fine - it is not an easy nut to crack. I don't mean to say I am an expert, but I am directly involved with this for quite some time now and I remember that for me personally it was not an easiest thing to grasp.
So...
Strictly speaking, I am not saying that intangible objects do not exist. I am saying that I see no evidence that they do. In other words, I am not making a positive claim. I am simply responding to your claim that intellectual objects exist. And thus - you are the one who has to prove it, since you are the one making the claim.
So that it does not seem that I am avoiding the question, I reply directly - I am not able to prove that non-physical objects do not exist.
However, I am not able to prove that Santa Clause does not exist. And thus from a practical point of view and in fact even from an epistemological, it is fine to go with the null hypothesis and just consider that Santa Clause does not exist, until proof to the contrary arrives.
In other words, where is your proof that non-physical objects exist? In fact, are you seriously making this claim? Will this debate turn into arguing about religion vs science?
"Different thinkers have attacked that problem in different ways, but the approach that satisfies me is the one taken by Mises and the Austrian School."
I see nothing in works of Mises of the Austrian School or praxeology in particular that proves the existence of non-physical objects. I still don't understand how you derive it from the quotes of Mises above.
You seem to pre-suppose that ideas are non-material, then use Mises argument to say that ideas are "real" and thus - you say that non-material objects are real.
The problem, of course, is the initial per-supposition that ideas are non-material.
You may want to avail yourself of this essay https://strangerousthoughts.wordpress.com/2010/11/14/the-economic-principles-of-intellectual-property-and-the-fallacies-of-intellectual-communism/
And also http://www.economicpolicyjournal.com/2013/04/anti-ip-crushed-epjs-steve-kinsella-ip.html
The entire puzzle you present here -- and it is an interesting one -- can be solved by stripping away the term goods as it applies to movies, music, software and replacing it with the economic service of delivering the non-scarce thing. We only speak of paying for a song in a purely metaphorical sense designed for marketing; actually we are purchasing the service delivery and that is the scarce (economic) thing. That insight solves the entire puzzle you present here.
Yes, if we refuse to acknowledge the goods character of intellectual objects, including its rivalrous nature, then of course they can be dismissed as merely a "metaphor". So could your bicycle. So could anything.
Noticing that intellectual objects must be delivered is trivial. Thinking that the delivery is an "economic service" misses the point. Customers don't pay just for "delivery", they pay for delivery of SOMETHING VALUABLE. Without a property right in the intellectual goods, there is no service.
I don't accept Kinsella's assertion that IP is non-scarce and non-rivalrous, and I ask you to consider the implications of your own suggestion that a free market would punish plagiarists with ostracism. We ostracize those who have done something wrong. If there is no property right in IP, then plagiarists have done nothing wrong.
Clearly Rothbard believed in contracting with IP. As I point out, one may only contract with property.
Why would someone pay for delivery of a non-scarce "thing"? If the "thing" were indeed non-scarce, would it not be instantaneously obtainable? The "thing" is non-scarce, yet delivery of the "thing" is scarce? That makes no sense to me. This one has always struck me as the most bizarre of the anti-IP arguments.
Depends on what you mean by "scarce". It seems to me many pro-IP people think non-scarce or non-rivalrous means that it is some magical thing that is everywhere in the air.
Non-rivalrous means that when one person uses something, it does not interfere with another person using that something.
If you are using a Pythagoras Theorem, anyone else can use it at the same time with you. This is what makes it non-rivalrous. But, strictly speaking, a Theorem in the way that it is a set of chemicals in our brain and set of symbols on paper that our brain can decipher is scarce. And if aliens with no knowledge of this theorem destroy our planet, the theorem would disappear, until someone else, perhaps, generates it while interacting with the world.
I am sorry, I cannot agree with your definition of rivalrous. Or, at least, this is not how I use the term.
The formula 'use' = 'derive satisfaction from' makes it very vague. What if I buy a chair and derive satisfaction only from knowing that nobody else in the world should have chairs? Does it mean that I now have claims on how other people use their wood?
According to that formula - yes.
I define rivalrous not as some imaginary "satisfaction", but actual use. If someone sits on a chair, you can't physically use it simply because it is impossible to occupy the same space when it is already occupied by another person.
With ideas no such problem exist. If I use Pythagoras Theorem to do something, I am not in any way preventing you physically to use it at the same time. It would only be rivalrous if when I am using Pythagoras Theorem you are physically unable to use it at the same time.
What you are doing here is positing the definition of rivalrous which goes beyond the realm of objective reality and marches into the subjective. Just like my example of a chair above.
The resource is rivalrous if you are not able to own it without excluding others.
Property allows you to owe a pen and paper. It does not allow you to exclude others from writing novels simply because this is what you bought pen and paper for.
But then again, this shaky rivalry concept, consumer use and producer use are irrelevant in a materialistic universe. So, it is more important to make your position clear on the material non-material issue we are struggling with above.
What is a thing without characteristics, nothing? I mean a chair has a length a color and weight, it exists, it is. But can a color exist? Independently no. So if you want to sell a song you have to sell it together with a material thing attached to it to be considered a property (dvd,cd). For example if you want to sell something colored in blue you could sell a blue chair.
Under your strict materialism (or whatever), how do you solve the IP content problem presented in my article? I order the movie Thor, and receive Gilligan's Island. Do I have a claim against the seller? Why?
Is this a question to me? It is just somewhere outside all the threads...
Anyway, since I am the only one who seems to promote "strict materialism", although I would simply go with "scientific skepticism", I would say that the claim against the seller is that he did not honor the contract and sent you a different DVD.
You say: "After all, I ordered a DVD, and I got a DVD. The only difference between what I contracted for and what I received is the pattern of 1’s and 0’s encoded into the disc. In other words, the only distinction is the IP. The physical property is identical, except for the pattern."
I don't get it. I mean, saying "the physical property is identical, except for the pattern" is same as "orange is identical to apple except it is a different fruit".
You seem to imply that two DVDs are physically identical and that the pattern on them is non-physical? Do you know anything at all about how DVDs are encoded?
The 0 and 1 patterns are actually burned on the surface of the DVD using a high-precision laser. DVD with different content cannot be physically identical. The fact that differences cannot be recognized by a naked eye does not change that fact.
"In some technical sense, the two discs could be said to be physically different, but such would be completely irrelevant to human action."
To a child or to a savage from a jungle a book is identical to any other book, as far as they are concerned. So what? Does it mean now that printing ink is immaterial? And that you can use that argument to say that "what really matters in books, which are technically identical, is the content"? I beg to differ. Content is actual ink and different books are not physically identical.
What I see, Alexander, is that you seem to think that when it comes to digital technology, we somehow move away from physical reality and create some immaterial 0s and 1s.
At no point does this really happen. Everything your hard drive stores is physically stored with magnetic material. The DVD is actually physically altered to store information - by the laser.
This is not "strict materialism". This is just reality.
"I would say that the claim against the seller is that he did not honor the contract and sent you a different DVD."
Only with IP does this make sense, because only with IP can two copies of the same movie be said to be "the same". Strictly speaking, they are not the same.
In a world without Intellectual Property, all DVD copies of "Thor" are different. Even ignoring the fact that all "objects" are continuously exchanging electrons with surrounding matter, each DVD is comprised of a wholly different set of sub-atomic particles than any other DVD, regardless of what "movie" is "on" it.
Suppose we live in a world with no IP. In my example, suppose the the buyer brings a lawsuit against the seller because he delivered the "wrong" DVD. How does the Plaintiff prove his case?
Under your "scientific skepticism", how can two copies of "Thor" be said to be "the same"?
"Under your "scientific skepticism", how can two copies of "Thor" be said to be "the same"?"
They aren't exactly the same, I agree. But they are similar enough that to us they seem the same and bring about the seemingly same result.
The limitation of our senses does not, however, invalidate the real state of things in the world.
Of course, to make things easier, we do say "identical copies" when copying a file, meaning that they are similar enough for us. But this is just simplifying things.
"They are similar enough that to us they seem the same and bring about the seemingly same result."
By "seemingly same result" you mean that a human being believes he's watching a pattern of information known as "Thor" and the not the pattern of information known as "Gilligan's Island".
In your theory however, there is no ONE pattern of information known as "Thor". Please answer my question from before. How does the plaintiff argue his case in a world of no IP?
To clarify, suppose the defendant argues, as you do, that there is NO intellectual object from which copies are made, there are only individual DVDs with microscopic pits burned into them. The plaintiff ordered a DVD, the plaintiff got a DVD.
How is one copy of Thor any more like another copy of Thor than it is like Gilligan's Island? Seems to me, the only difference is the underlying pattern of information, which you say does not exist.
Okay, if you want a more detailed response, I will give it. And there are two parts to this response.
Part 1. Toothbrush example.
You saw your friend buy a toothbrush. You want to buy the same toothbrush. You buy it and then go to court and say - I am sorry guys, but this is not an IDENTICAL toothbrush. Some molecules are a little bit different from the one I wanted.
Does this sound like a realistic scenario?
Well, you are offering the same.
Any objects that we call "same" in this world, like toothbrushes, are not really identical. I hope this is not news to you. Do you think you need some IP here too?
A person who gets a good enough copy and goes to court will at best be considered a prankster.
However, if you do wish to put some numbers, then it is, in fact, possible. When you are comparing toothbrushes or compact discs, it is possible to see whether the parameters are close enough. With discs you can in fact get an estimated number of errors during the burn process - some software actually displays that statistic. Usually these are compensated for automatically by your computer.
You will have to look at the original digital file and the data on your disc and compare them. If errors are like less than 1% or some other decided number, then you are fine.
So I see nothing in your example that presents a real problem. Nor do I see anything "creative arts specific". The example applies to toothbrushes and to compact discs alike.
Now, the second part of the answer is more fundamental to our discussion.
It is, in fact, irrelevant whether scientific skeptical approach helps to solve a problem in court or not - if the goal of our inquiry is to find out how the world really works. And although I think I explained in the first part of this reply that there is no problem, even if we posit a problem, I don't see how it gives us any right to lie about reality.
Thing is, everything we know about reality tells us that reality is physical and that all phenomenon we know can be reduced to matter and matter interaction, albeit sometimes very complex interaction.
And so I see no basis to say that there are also "intellectual objects". This is not more than a metaphor, a metaphor that should be thrown away in discussions such as these so that one can get to the heart of the matter (yet another metaphor, there is really no heart ;)
You see no problem here? The problem is that, contrary to your view, billions of people believe there is such a thing as IP. 100's of billions of dollars worth of goods depend on enforcing IP. This utilitarian consideration does not prove that IP is right or wrong - billions of people have been wrong before. But it IS a problem.
Ultimately Louigi, it's about right and wrong. To clarify, in your world, there is nothing wrong with plagiarism? False attribution? Copying?
In your world, a buyer and seller cannot agree to forego copying, because there is no property right in a pattern of ideas, right?
1. Billions if people believe in some sort of god. They spend billions of dollars on churches and candles, hours and hours of their lives on praying and services. Based on their unjustified beliefs they make decisions, like prevent stem cell research or try to tech creationism or do not allow abortions. Yes, that is a problem, absolutely. Same as with IP.
The solution to that problem is not to just go with what the majority says, of course. The solution is to go where facts lead us. It is slow, hard work.
2. Why do you think that in my world there is nothing wrong with plagiarism? How noticing that the world is physical make plagiarism right?
Killing is bad, although I do not believe there is a soul. Plagiarism is not good. And I don't see why you should think that my world-view suggests it is good.
You do not seem to acknowledge the points I made in all of the posts above. You did not say - okay, you have good points, I agree. Neither did you say - I don't agree. You now seem to be asking questions the relevance of which escapes me.
Can you explain why are we talking about human rights and plagiarism?
Louigi, I really appreciate the dialog, and your effort. But everything you say amounts to a tautology: Matter is all that materially exists. Yes, I agree. An idea is the result of electro-chemical reactions in the human brain. The information encoded on a DVD is little holes in a substrate. And so on. But so what? All you're saying is that matter is matter.
The issue is property rights. Property rights are not a physical thing, at all. Property rights are an agreement between people that we shall enforce one's ability to exclude others from the use of a thing.
We are talking about human rights because, if matter is all that exists, then human rights don't exist. And property rights don't exist. If you are not willing to embrace abstract concepts as being real and objective, then you cannot have law.
We are talking about plagiarism because most people inherently believe that plagiarism is wrong. What I would like you to consider is that without a property right in a pattern of ideas, there is absolutely nothing wrong about plagiarism. Or false attribution. Or copying.
All rights are property rights, and all wrongs are property violations. People who do not support IP are intellectual communists. The effects of communism are well-established, and stone evil.
"We are talking about human rights because, if matter is all that exists, then human rights don't exist. And property rights don't exist."
This is a misunderstanding. A grave one, in fact.
"If you are not willing to embrace abstract concepts as being real and objective, then you cannot have law."
Alexander, you seem to have missed the whole point I am making. I don't know how else to explain this.
I am not saying that abstract things are not real. I am saying that they are material.
You always seem to posit that apart from matter there are some "concepts" which are non-material and then based on that derive some "intellectual objects". This is scientifically incorrect.
Abstract objects, agreement and concepts are all the results of brain processing. They are all in the end material. And they are real, yes. Agreements are a real phenomenon, thinking is a real phenomenon, ideas are a real phenomenon.
My problem is with the way you are looking at these phenomenon.
In other words, I do embrace abstract concepts as being real, I don't embrace them as being immaterial.
Is this clear?
And if it is, then I do not see at which point we have a property violation when I, say, copy your invention?
You see? It is not possible to show. Only - again! - if you posit some "abstract things" which are not matter. But they are! Concepts, rules, agreements - it is all matter interactions!
Whether everything can or cannot be explained in terms of sub atomic particles is not yet known. A contemplation of the bizarre nature of quantum mechanics should give you some pause. For example, we don't actually know "where" anything is located, nor "when" anything occurred.
However, I'm willing to assume materialism for the sake of argument. In fact, a materialist interpretation of intellectual objects may be just the solution.
A "song" is a pattern of electro-chemical reactions in my brain. The same song is also a pattern of electro-chemical reactions in your brain. Although technically different, these two patterns are sufficiently similar that we humans are willing to call them the same one "thing".
Quantum mechanics holds that all "matter" can manifest as particles or waves. A wave-like representation of the pattern "inside" your "mind" will therefore intersect with the wave-like representation of the pattern "in" my "mind". The intersection will create new patterns of constructive and destructive interference.
The sum-total of all the interference patterns generated by all instances of the "the song" is itself one big pattern, and it is, of course, material.
Any time any human "understands" a "concept", what is materially occurring is an electro-chemical reaction stimulated by interaction with a large, existant, and temporally stable pattern of interference previously generated by the "discovery" and / or "Creation" of that "concept".
Not being omniscient, we mere humans have no ability to trace and all of the countless nuances of all details of all the interference patterns of all the sub-atomic wave-particles in play. The best we can hope for is to, in our human way, identify and name these phenomena as "intellectual objects".
As with any scarce object, conflict can result over their use, and we need a reasonable theory of property.
"A "song" is a pattern of electro-chemical reactions in my brain. The same song is also a pattern of electro-chemical reactions in your brain. Although technically different, these two patterns are sufficiently similar that we humans are willing to call them the same one "thing". "
Agreed.
"Quantum mechanics holds that all "matter" can manifest as particles or waves."
No. Quantum mechanics deals only with elementary particles. A chair cannot be described with quantum mechanics.
I don't want to make an authority claim, but I do have a degree in physics and I do know something about quantum mechanics. It is a very complicated subject and I would suggest we do not venture there. To put it simply, the scale of matter you and I are discussing has nothing to do with the world of elementary particles.
"As with any scarce object, conflict can result over their use, and we need a reasonable theory of property."
Okay. Explain this to me in more detail, please. At which point exactly does the conflict arise? What is this conflict exactly?
LMFAO @ Louigi. You are the one who insists on explaining everything, including ideas, in terms of matter. Although science does not yet have a theory of everything, it may well be true that ideas are, in a technical sense, understandable as interactions of sub-atomic particles.
You correctly acknowledge that macro objects cannot be described in terms of interactions of sub-atomic wave functions, even though we believe that is what is really going on. The only reason we can speak of a "chair" is because of its effect on human action - it makes a difference whether the chair is there or not - the Mises test. But really "chair" is just a metaphor, a human language shortcut in explaining something far too complex to explain really.
The exact same approach can apply to intellectual objects. We agree that patterns of ideas exist materially. I find it useless to conceive of ideas in material terms, just as I find it useless to conceive of a chair as wave-particles. But whatever.
The fact that many people can have a fair agreement on the definition and boundaries of an intellectual object, and that such an object can condition the outcome of human events proves that the larger macroscopic object exists. Since your claim is that all existence is material, then the macro intellectual object must be material. In my previous post, I have described such material representation of intellectual objects as an interference pattern in quantum mechanics.
If you want to quibble with use of the term "intangible", substitute your own term. Kinsella likes to deride IP by calling it "imaginary property". Go ahead. All rights are imaginary. Rights are just agreements. Agreements are just thoughts.
If you only want to believe in property rights for physical things, then call intellectual objects physical things. I've given you a fine hypothesis regarding interference patterns. It's fine with me.
Alexander, in the video that I posted to you I asked you to explain at which point does trespass occur in a simple situation. You are yet to give me a reply.
Instead of just answering the question and telling me: here is the point, this is trespass, you began to link me to this blog. So I came here asking you the same thing.
You invent a wheel and then proceed to create it out of wood. I pass by and see the wheel. I then go home and proceed to make the wheel myself.
Where exactly did trespass occur?
The way I see it - there has bee no trespass. I use my own body to copy the information I see around myself into my brain. That includes trees, could, you and your wheel. I then use my brain and physical property the way I want.
"The exact same approach can apply to intellectual objects. We agree that patterns of ideas exist materially. I find it useless to conceive of ideas in material terms, just as I find it useless to conceive of a chair as wave-particles."
Right. I understand that. The problem is that your "intellectual objects" overlaps things that we cover by physical property. You call your invention an object, instantly overlapping my brain and things that belong to me simple because I saw your invention. So now the copy of your idea in my brain is also this "intellectual object".
I don't see a justification for this other than your desire to be able to use your invention and not let everyone else benefit from the knowledge they get from the outside world.
This is exactly the reason why I stress materiality of ideas. Because it all comes down to property that is already owned.
For instance, if I own some wood and nails, I can put them together into a pattern and call it a chair. But because I called it a chair, it does not mean that now we need some special property rules for chairs. We have property rules for matter. I not simply own a chair, I own things it is made of, down to particles.
In other words, I really want to know where exactly trespass occurs.
"You are the one who insists on explaining everything, including ideas, in terms of matter. Although science does not yet have a theory of everything, it may well be true that ideas are, in a technical sense, understandable as interactions of sub-atomic particles."
Oh, and btw, particles ARE matter as well. Everything is some form of matter. We do not divide the world into matter and particles.
Louigi, when you deliberately attribute a statement to me that is, in fact, the opposite of what I said, this is called a strawman fallacy. At no time do I assert that particles are not matter. I do not tolerate such tactics on this blog. You will be blocked unless you recognize and apologize.
Trespass in intellectual space occurs when one utilizes the productive capacity that was homesteaded by another. The clearest example is the copying of a digital media file. Such a file represents a productive capacity that was homesteaded by another.
If you want to own the intellectual object "method of making a wheel", you would need to show that such method is a substantial productive capacity, because it is when an intellectual object functions as a producer good that it is rivalrous.
Like most "patents", I don't believe the method of making a wheel represents a substantial productive capacity, because the intellectual content does not, itself, function as a consumer good.
What constitutes "substantial productive capacity" is arguable, of course. But physical property suffers the same argument. Reasonable people can disagree about whether a proposed property object is or is not sufficiently complex, substantial, defined, etc.
And when I distinguish "physical property" from "intellectual property", I do not require new rules of property. That is the entire point of Intellectual Space. Once you have my construct in place, the existing argument for property may simply be extended.
Nor is it necessary to distinguish between intangible and physical objects. I've explained how, if you really want to, you can conceive of macroscopic intellectual objects as physically existing. It is rather useless to do so, which is why I choose to use the word "intangible". Similarly, it is rather useless to consider that your chair is a collection of sub-atomic particles, even though that's what it really is.
The useful measure of whether something exists ("physically" exists if you insist) is whether it passes the Mises test. That is WHY Mises tested reality the WAY he did. He correctly understood, (as do you I suspect), that you cannot prove the existence of matter.
Louigi said: "The problem is that your "intellectual objects" overlaps things that we cover by physical property. You call your invention an object, instantly overlapping my brain and things that belong to me simple because I saw your invention. So now the copy of your idea in my brain is also this "intellectual object"."
The idea in your brain is not the intellectual object. The intellectual object is external to you. Please re-read this article if you must. There is a good reason why the word "external" is in the title.
Yes, it is possible that the homesteading of intellectual property may "overlap" your property, if you wish to use that word. All you are saying is that my property places limits on the use of your property. Intellectual property objects are no different than physical property objects in this regard.
Your noticing this potential conflict is great support for my argument. The potential for conflict is exactly why we have property rights. The anti-IP argument ultimately rests on the assertion that intellectual objects are not rivalrous. By pointing out the conflict between my IP and your physical property, you are contesting that which you say is not contestable.
"At no time do I assert that particles are not matter. I do not tolerate such tactics on this blog. You will be blocked unless you recognize and apologize."
Sure, I apologize. However, before accusing me of dishonesty, I would like for you to give me the benefit of the doubt. It was a simple misunderstanding of your phrase on my part. And I think you and I agree that our goal is to get to the heart of the matter.
I for one do not care if IP exists or not. What I care about is logic and evidence. I go where logic and evidence leads me.
I will reply to you here, but a little bit later - I need time to think over your argument now that I see you do not seem to be saying that intellectual objects are not immaterial. If you say that intellectual objects are actually matter... this is interesting. I need to re-read.
Is there a fundamental difference in homesteading the productive capacity of a song and the productive capacity of a 'rectangle with rounded corners'?
I differ from Louigi in that I believe that ideas cannot be expressed entirely in the material realm. I prefer to think about it as though we are all drawing ideas from a universal ocean. Pursuing IP is like trying to reach back into that pool and put a fence around your corner of it.
The reason plagiarism is considered wrong is because you are being paid (or required as a part of your education) to dip into that ocean and pull out something that hasn't been pulled out before - but instead you copy an idea that someone else pulled from the ocean. The act of copying itself isn't the 'wrong' part - it is the obligation to provide something unique that hasn't been met.
That said, I don't believe in punishment for plagiarism (outside of bad grades, which are immaterial anyway). How much you drawing from another's work is plagiarism, and how much is research being soaked into your own ideas is a very fuzzy line. The water in that ocean flows through all fences.
A case in point is the 'discovery' of scientific (or mathematical) laws. Pythagoras had unique ideas for sure, but they can't be IP due to them being fundamental to how the universe works. Same with music based on mathematical formulas (like pi).
Yet, if I were to rate the importance and value of the ideas of Pythagoras compared to a musician... my man Py wins every time. If anyone deserves royalties for his ideas, it is him.
I will continue to be anti-IP. I think what is happening on this site is an effort to confound the nature of ideas by making them seem more like property. The reason is obvious - you make money from music. However, to do so is to not recognize the true nature of ideas (which I think is far greater than something to make money off of). The ocean of ideas that we all draw from exists to make this physical world a better place.
In effect, what you are saying is that the ideas of musicians or authors or movie executives deserve compensation in a special way where the ideas of everyone else (who give them away for free) are not homesteaded in the same way. Your ideas are for you and for those who pay you for them - and you are willing to use coercion (ultimately, since this is about law) to keep it that way.
I'm sorry if I appear to paint this in a negative light, or if it looks like miss-representation, but I do think this is the logical outcome of your position. The only possible reason for being pro-IP is to protect an income stream by using force against those who plagiarizer or copy or steal or 'trespass on the rivalrous productive capacity of' a particular idea in order to spread it to more people. There is something morally wrong with that position.
"Is there a fundamental difference in homesteading the productive capacity of a song and the productive capacity of a 'rectangle with rounded corners'?"
Yes. A rectangle with rounded corners is trivial compared to a song.
"The reason plagiarism is considered wrong is because you are being paid (or required as a part of your education) to dip into that ocean and pull out something that hasn't been pulled out before - but instead you copy an idea that someone else pulled from the ocean. The act of copying itself isn't the 'wrong' part - it is the obligation to provide something unique that hasn't been met."
Um, what? I MIGHT have a contract with a publisher in which I promise to deliver my own work, but suppose I don't. Suppose we live in a world with no IP. I copy your novel, and claim to have written it myself. I haven't stolen anything from you, because there is no property in your pattern of ideas.
I would be lying about authorship, but lying is only wrong when used to violate property rights. Lying to protect property is perfectly justified and virtuous.
All rights are property rights, all wrongs are property violations.
Also, consider the opposite problem in a world of no IP - false attribution. Suppose I write a novel about magical teenagers called "Harry Potter" by J.K. Rowling. Have I done anything wrong? Absent IP, I am at a complete loss to understand what would be wrong with false attribution.
"Also, consider the opposite problem in a world of no IP - false attribution. Suppose I write a novel about magical teenagers called "Harry Potter" by J.K. Rowling. Have I done anything wrong? Absent IP, I am at a complete loss to understand what would be wrong with false attribution."
Plagiarism has nothing to do with copyright, sir.
It is wrong because attribution has a practical sense. If I know that you wrote a good book, that means you can write more. By putting our names on things we show our ability.
False attribution is, simply speaking, a lie. Lying is bad a myriad of reasons. It has nothing to do with copyright. Copyright has to do with copying.
As for what Bob said, to me this is pseudoscience. I prefer to think we can fly, it does not make it so. Wanting to believe in a pool of ideas or that ideas cannot be expressed materially does not make it true.
Um, what? Plagiarism is COPYING the authored work of another, and claiming as one's own. I'm using "false attribution" to mean attributing one's own authored work to another (presumably more famous) author.
In either case, the issue is IP. Absent a property right in the pattern of ideas, there is no property at stake with plagiarism or false attribution, and thus nothing wrong with such lies.
All rights are property rights, and all wrongs are property violations.
The accepted common law definition of "fraud" is "a deception that induces reliance leading to damages". Deception (lie), reliance, and DAMAGES (i.e. harm to property).
If I promise you that the topaz in my hand is really a diamond, and you rely on my promise and pay me $1000 when it is worth only $20, that is fraud. It is fraud because your reliance on my deception caused you property harm.
However, if you are a robber and come to my door demanding to know where I have hidden my diamond, and I LIE and tell you that I don't have a diamond, when actually it is hidden under the bed, that is not fraud. It is not fraud because your reliance on my deception did not cause you property harm.
Lying, in and of itself, is neither right nor wrong. The fundamental issue is always PROPERTY. Notice that "proper" and "property" derive from the same root. This is not a coincidence.
Without property, there is no right and wrong. A concept of property must PRE-exist ethics. It is that basic.
To all Anti-IP: Most of you acknowledge that there is something wrong with plagiarism and false attribution. If you will think carefully about this, you will realize this must lead to intellectual property.
"To all Anti-IP: Most of you acknowledge that there is something wrong with plagiarism and false attribution. If you will think carefully about this, you will realize this must lead to intellectual property."
This is just bad. One can obviously argue that adultery is wrong without believing the spouse has a "right" to the other's sexual exclusivity. Likewise, I consider false attribution immoral because I consider deception immoral. It's not AGGRESSION, but it's immoral (like adultery or bad manners). The purpose of rights is resolve conflicts over scarce resources. You have a right to your body and your house because other people might want to use those, and so having a right over your body and your house is necessary to prevent conflict over their use (If I want to use your body different than how you do).
This is not possible with ideas because ideas are not scarce resources. I am not deprived of an idea when I explain it to you, or if you figure it out independently. If I am not deprived of it, then we cannot conflict over its use, and therefore applying rights to it is 1) redundant, and 2) its implementation leads to aggression because you must use force to prevent me from expressing your idea with my own property.
Think again. Adultery is wrong because marriage is a contract. A contract is a set of promises, in this case including a promise not to have sex outside the marriage.
One can only contract regarding that which is one's own rightful property. In the case of marriage, people are contracting regarding the use of their own bodies, i.e. their own property. Absent a property right in one's own body, you cannot have a marriage contract, and adultery is not wrong.
Regarding your repetition of Kinsella's "ideas are not scarce", well yes they are. The full section on the rivalrous nature of intellectual objects is not published, but feel free to peruse other articles here, and other comments in this thread to at least get the overview of my argument.
A contract is not a set of promises. You don't have an enforceable right to someone's promise. Adultery is "wrong" for lots of reasons - consequentialist reasons (adultery makes people unhappy), Kantian reasons (deception is beneath a rational actor), etc. But it's not a rights violation and neither is plagiarism. Sorry pal, but promises are not enforceable.
"Absent a property right in one's own body, you cannot have a marriage contract, and adultery is not wrong."
What are you even talking about? No one's disputing self-ownership here. Your thinking about rights and wrongs is BLACK AND WHITE. There are other types of wrongs besides rights violations. Your attempts to hammer every wrong as a rights violation is absurd. Besides, no spouse has a right to the sexual exclusivity of the other.
"Regarding your repetition of Kinsella's "ideas are not scarce", well yes they are. "
No, they aren't. I am not deprived of an idea when I give it away. This means there CANNOT BE conflicts over it's use because it can be used by everyone at all the same time. This is EASY EASY EASY stuff.
"The full section on the rivalrous nature of intellectual objects is not published, but feel free to peruse other articles here, and other comments in this thread to at least get the overview of my argument."
Sorry I'm not going to look up and read your crankish theories on intellectual property. Debate me here and now instead of making me fetch your work.
Yes, you are disputing self-ownership, without realizing it. Plus you do not know what a contract is.
A contract is a promise or a set of promises that that law regards as a duty, and the breach of which, the law will provide a remedy for. Not every promise is a contract, but every contract is a set of promises.
To form a valid contract requires "consideration", which is the bargained-for promise to exchange legal detriment and benefit. You promise to give me something of value, and I must promise to give you something of value in return.
This is a contract.
One may only contract with that which is one's rightful property.
I will "debate" you on this thread, as time permits, as the challenge drives the content of the main work. I will not tolerate trolling and pointless ad-hominem insults (e.g. "crankish").
I will respond at length to your query about "scarce" and "rivalrous", as they are crucial to the topic. But first I would like your acknowledgement that we agree on the definition and requirements for contract formation.
"To all Anti-IP: Most of you acknowledge that there is something wrong with plagiarism and false attribution. If you will think carefully about this, you will realize this must lead to intellectual property."
I think that false attribution is similar to lying to someone that it is your birthday today and receiving presents. Or lying about your business achievements. Or lying about your career, that you were a captain of a ship, for instance. I don't think that plagiarism is the same kind of thing as stealing someone's car.
"Without property, there is no right and wrong. A concept of property must PRE-exist ethics. It is that basic."
Oh really? So calling your mother bad names for no apparent reason is not wrong? Don't simplify things, please. Property defines what lawyers can address. But there are non-property wrongs.
Lets say for the sake of the argument that I am an author. I write a book as well known as Harry Potter. You come along and photo-copy my book, slap your name on it and begin selling it.
I do not have a problem with this. First, I believe that it won't happen often - even in the absence of IP laws. Having IP laws is similar to having the (unnecessary) TSA to ward off the minuscule chance of bad things happening at airports.
Second, when it does happen it will likely happen because 1 person likes my book and wants to share it with others. The effort is not to capitalize on the book, but to disseminate it for free. This is indistinguishable from a library, other than ease of dissemination.
Third, the very purpose of thoughts and ideas is to spread them as far and as wide as possible. Perhaps I am unique in my outlook in that I value the number of people who read / listen to / get benefit from my 'work' much more than how much money I make off of it.
Fourth, the publicity gained from a highly disseminated work (even if done through unapproved channels) leads to profit in other areas. There is plenty of money in merchandising - both for authentic and knock-off (here is an idea, exploit both markets yourself). Authors / musicians are also known for using record sales to line up book readings / talks / and gigs - all which have value and are not infinitely copy able (due to the scares resource of the author / band).
I also agree that ethics does exist without property. Lying is wrong because of what it does to the relationship of the people involved, regardless of weather or not property is affected. Again, like with plagiarism, I don't advocate using force against a liar unless there is a material component to it (like fraud or perjury) where the lie affects person or property. I will disassociate myself of such a person.
With all due respect Bob, you haven't offered an argument to which I can respond. Simply saying that you "don't believe" plagiarism will "happen often" adds nothing. Tell my WHY you feel that way.
Next, you confuse plagiarism with simple copying. If a fan wants to share your book, there is no reason to put his own name as author.
Next, you imply that copying intellectual objects can be "infinite". No, it can't. Each instance of an intellectual object requires time, labor, material resources. This "infinity" assertion is one of the crucial pillars of the anti-IP position, and it's simply false. You cannot cite a single example of a single intellectual object which has an infinite number of copies, or for which the cost per copy is zero.
Lying is wrong because of what it does to a relationship? Speak to my example upthread, where I lie to a robber to protect my property.
The issue of Intellectual Property has to do with LAW. What should the law be with regard to intellectual objects, if anything? I think it is very relevant that most people appreciate that there is something wrong with violating intellectual property rights, even if they have not yet done the work necessary to realize what is at stake.
There are plenty of intellectual objects that approach infinity with 'zero' cost, but I suspect that you would not define these ideas as valid under your framework - ergo your framework is self limiting. For example, the use of intellectual objects known as 'words' approaches infinity, with effectively zero cost. My use of any given word (even if created by someone else) doesn't preclude your use of the same word to construct sentences. The cost per copy of word used is the energy to type it in, or the breath to speak it... I consider that 'zero' for all intents and purposes.
The same goes for larger objects. Sharing a file has effectively zero cost, and as technology improves the costs drop - that's what technology does. Right now people are working on a device to keep the entire intellectual capacity of Wikipedia off line for $20. If I can keep all of Wikipedia for that amount, then the 'cost' of a song is considerably less... approaching zero. All this is beside the point, because the cost is not passed on to the creator of an idea - so the cost 'to him' is zero, all cost is put on the consumer.
I'm confused as to what lying to robbers has to do with either plagiarism or copyright. The point I am making is that lying to non-robbers (people you do business with, your friends, your family) is damaging to that relationship. The act of robbing is also damaging, I don't have a problem with you damaging your relationships with robbers.
The reason Plagiarism will not happen often is because it is a self-extincting action. Plagiarists become known as such, either through complaints from the real author(s) or the investigation of the consumer. A Plagiarist may get away with it in the short term, but in the long term it is a loosing strategy. Furthermore, most consumers don't care 'who's name' is on a product (hence the market for actual plagiarism is small). Most care about getting a copy and consuming it. Removing the authors name / substituting your own is not worth it for the vast majority of copy-related cases. I don't see it being a problem outside of the classroom or a very small circle of industries. Certainly, plagiarism doesn't affect the movie / music / book industries in any significant fashion.
In that vein, I do not think that the LAW should be used against plagiarists. The court of public opinion will suffice. Why lock someone up when shunning them and not purchasing their products will suffice? There is no violation of property, no violence done - for what trespass do you want to punish this person? Have they stolen from you - perhaps the money customers gave to the plagiarizer is rightfully yours (though I fail to see how you can make a positive claim on someone else's purchase decision).
I understand fully what is at stake. Pro-IP people want to use the LAW to lock up those who have not stolen, nor harmed anyone based on a perceived lack of money in their pockets owed them by customers who have not purchased their product, but received a copy through other channels. Sometimes Pro-IP people go after 'distributors', and sometimes they go after 'customers'. The motivation is always lost sales or unauthorized use... which comes down to money.
The fact that 'most people appreciate that there is something wrong with violating intellectual property rights' doesn't help your argument. People as a group appreciate many stupid things. Look at politics - it doesn't matter if you like the R or the D, the other half is a bunch of idiots. That is a lot of really stupid people, no matter how you slice it. It takes exceptional thinking to be convinced of the truth of Mises, Rothbard, and anarcho-capitalist principles. 'Most people' do not appreciate these things. Why do you side with 'Most people' when it comes to IP?
The exact same points about the low cost of reproducing certain intellectual objects can be made with regard to certain physical objects. If that does not invalidate physical property, it must not invalidate intellectual property.
The consistent application of logical syllogisms is my approach. The anti-IP position is notable for its lack of any logical rules by which its argument may be tested. Note, for example, that Kinsella has failed to even define "rivalrous".
Bob, please review the piece here "The Alleged Case Against Intellectual Property", then state some logical rules that you think will hold for physical objects, and then fail for intellectual objects.
The example of lying to a robber is relevant because it indicates that lying is not wrong per se. Lying is wrong when done to deprive another of property. Lying to protect property is right. Lying when there is no property right involved is neither good nor bad, certainly not as far as a just law is concerned. Under a just law, all rights are property rights, and all wrongs are property wrongs.
I do not "side with most people", I side where morality and logic lead. Logically, intellectual creations represent a productive capacity for mass-producing valuable items. Morally, the use of the productive capacity is rightly owned by the homesteader, and use by another is trespass.
Having said that, you must understand that, ultimately, "law" and "property" are just beliefs. The only way we ever began to develop a concept of "rights" at all was because people had subjective feelings that peace was preferable to conflict.
Alexander, what you are doing is this and correct me if I am wrong.
Number one. You label a physical thing "intellectual object". Then use the Mises reality test to say that that physical thing is real, thus intellectual objects exist.
Here is the relevant paragraph:
--- “Old Brown Shoe” had the same physical manifestation as did “Hey Jude”, because they were both embodied in the same original album. Yet something about the pattern of information in “Hey Jude” conditioned human events in a way that “Old Brown Shoe” did not. An intellectual creation has the ability to condition the outcome of human events, passes the Mises test, and therefore is a real thing. ---
I think this is an incorrect argument. All you are doing is redefining words. In a similar manner I can prove that dragons exist. All I have to do is define chairs to be dragons, then use the Mises test to show that chairs are real and... voila! Dragons are real!
The problem is of course in the redefinition. I don't understand why you should define "Hey Jude" as an "intellectual object". We have already agreed that a song is a physical object. Why call it "intellectual"? What's so intellectual about it? Or what is not intellectual about other objects?
Number two. You posit an axiom that all offenses are property offenses and thus if libertarians consider plagiarism to be an offense - it must be a property offense.
I do not agree that all offenses are property offenses. You focus on your lying example, but you ignore the examples me and Bob have thrown at you. Being rude to your parents is not a property offense, but yet libertarians and libertarians alike typically think it is bad behavior.
Plagiarism is NOT a property offense. It is just being deceitful about your achievements. It is just nasty behavior. It can become a property offense in situations when you are handed property as a result of someone thinking you are the author, but this is not exact plagiarism, this is closer to identity fraud.
So saying that you wrote "Moonlight Sonata" has nothing to do with property.
Number three. Finally, I am not at all satisfied with how you define rivalrous. I still did not get a clear answer to a simple question. Can you please write a couple of sentences without any links or explanations, just a clear cut answer to this situation:
You invent a wheel and you are sitting and doing it. I pass by, glance at what you are doing, get the same idea, go home and make my own wheel. At which point does trespass occur?
This is a conversation about property, therefore it is about law. In a correctly conceived legal system, all legal rights are property rights, and all legal wrongs are property violations.
Being "rude" is neither right nor wrong. Whether or not rudeness is illegal depends entirely on whether the rude act deprives another of property.
Bob chose an example of "calling your mother bad names for no apparent reason", indicating this was "wrong", but not a property violation. If this kind of action is to be considered legally wrong, it must be based on a property right in one's reputation.
Violating a property right in the reputation of another is the anciently recognized tort of "defamation". Whether a libertarian society would find defamation actionable will depend entirely on whether or not there is a property right in a reputation.
If you want to show trespass in copying a wheel invention, you will need to show that the pattern of ideas itself is a consumer good, as discussed repeatedly. If you are successful, then the invention represents the homesteading of new productive capacity, and the copying is trespass, occurring in the act of copying.
I don't believe that an invention is a consumer good, but it is arguable. I can sense how frustrating this conversation must be for you, and I suggest the following:
Formulate a logical rule for the definition of property, something like "If x is such and such, then x is rightful property." For any word within the rule, provide a definition. Then we will test out your rule.
For what it is worth, the 'pro-IP' side just won a victory today. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/13/supreme-court-monsanto_n_3266319.html?ncid=txtlnkushpmg00000037
A summary of the facts: 1. A farmer bought seed he suspected to be GMO 'roundup ready' seed from a seed silo. 2. The seed was sold with the intent that it be consumed as feed. 3. He planted the seed, and it grew. 4. The owners of the patent on the seed (monsanto) sued him because he used the seed in a way that they didn't authorize. 5. The farmer was not in contract with monsanto when he bought the seed in the first place.
This is one reason I am totally against IP. This is more than just a song being copied. This affects our entire food supply, which is largely (>%80) gmo now. The logic used here is exactly the same logic you are applying on your blog - that he was using the productive capacity of the seed in an unauthorized way. The absurdity of the argument is that of course seeds have productive capacity - that's what they do - they reproduce. To insist that someone not reproduce something that is by nature made to reproduce is just silly. This is the logic you are applying to IP, and it affects the physical world.
As you can see, the only possible benefit from a pro-IP position is to strengthen the 500lbs gorilla (monsanto) by suing farmers for planting seeds. I don't think it is good for humanity to have the majority of our food supply controlled by 1 company - especially since their business is messing with the genetic code of the things that we eat. But, but... I thought IP law was supposed to help the little guy...
I'll give another example from the physical world - the rep rap 3d printer. It is capable of printing its own replacement parts - basically a self-replicating machine. It isn't to the point where it can re-create all of itself, but lets theorize that it can (for the sake of the argument).
I don't have a logical rule for the definition of property (others have done it better than I can). However, any rule that defines property in my opinion cannot have derivative works (including but not limited to copies of itself) as being considered property of the original creator.
Using the theoretical rep rap as an example, if I make copies of the machine and give them away or sell them for less than the original - that should be OK by any law defining property - just as I can crate / sell / give away any other object created by the 3d printer. I would apply the same law to seeds as I would to music or any other intellectual property, or any other physical thing that can reproduce. If you sell me a dog and it reproduces, you do not have rights over its offspring.
I think the strength of your case is when you analogize it with bicycles and factories, when in reality IP more closely resembles seeds, animals, and rep rap machines.
The RepRap creators have designated the project as open source, but for sake of argument we can imagine they would like to enforce a patent or copyright. It is very interesting to imagine a self-replicating machine, but from a legal theory perspective, it is not different than a factory. The RepRap is like an assembly line that produces widgets. Under my theory, whether there is an intellectual property right in a RepRap will depend on whether the pattern of ideas ITSELF will function as a consumer item.
Where have others given a logical rule for property?
You yourself have given a logical rule for property - It is a rivalrous scarce resource that has been captured from nature by homesteading (I'm sure others have better wording than I do).
All through out history until this latest century it was understood that people can do what they like with their property. For example, if I sell you seeds, it doesn't matter if you plant them or eat them or toss them into the ocean - they are your seeds. It is a recent development that the original seller of a product attempts to put restrictions on what the buyer can do with the good he has purchased. This is very obvious when discussing IP (everything is 'licensed' now, we don't own anything). However, we see the same issues creeping up with monsanto and the seeds, or with cell phone providers and the legality of 'unlocking' a device, or even in the 2nd hand computer games market. You can't resell these objects without being a 'licensed re-seller', or a 'licensed distributor'.
All I would do is make an amendment to whatever logical postulation of property that is put forward - something to the effect that it doesn't matter if an object is self replicating or not, or if it can be 'copied' or not. Once you sell an object (real or intellectual) then the seller cannot compel the buyer of an object to use it in one way but not another. Any such compulsion (especially if using law to enforce it) is immoral. If you can compel in this way, then it the buyer doesn't really 'own' anything - at best he is a renter.
No, actually there is a long history of property being sold with conditions of how the land may or may not be used. In real estate, such a condition is called a "covenant running with the land".
It is important to note that these covenants arose at common law. Free people can voluntarily agree to terms of sale that include future covenants. Allowing covenants is freedom, prohibiting them is anti-freedom.
Agreed - but a contract is a far cry from what is being done today. A contract usually involves a signature and some sort of agreement. When you purchase a CD, there is no contract signed. Same with a movie - all you get there are 'threats' from the FBI at the beginning of it. Swiping a credit card at your local market does not make a covenant between you and the record company.
Enforcement of IP today involves selling something as a physical object with no contract, then chasing down those who violate this non-contract for 'theft' (again, not a crime that has been committed).
It also involves trying to enforce these non-contracts on 3rd persons - people who buy used. There is no contract there to enforce, so I don't see how it is justifiable.
For the sake of being consistent I am pro-associations, but anti-zoning laws. Covenants are freedom if you can opt-out.
A free society is completely based on voluntary exchange. "Contract" is the name we give to voluntary exchange.
A contract is a promise or a set of promises that that law regards as a duty, and the breach of which, the law will provide a remedy for. Not every promise is a contract, but every contract is a set of promises.
To form a valid contract requires "consideration", which is the bargained-for promise to exchange legal detriment and benefit. You promise to give me something of value, and I must promise to give you something of value in return.
This is a contract.
One may only contract with that which is one's rightful property.
Agreed - purchase is contract. My point is that IP proponents are attempting to force articles of contract that have not been explicitly agreed to by the purchaser.
The pro IP position would be like saying I purchase an apple from a store, and then plant the apple and grow a tree. The grocer can't come after me saying 'I sold you an apple to eat, not to plant' - that is ridiculous. I didn't sign a contract to not-plant my apple. I bought an apple.
The same thing goes with music / other IP (unless a contract has been explicitly signed, which is an extreme rarity). There is no 'thou shalt not plant this apple' clause in the purchase of a CD - and even if there was between the first buyer/seller - such a clause would not (could not) be enforced between a second buyer seller. The first has no claim on the 3rd.
Now you may say that there is an 'implied' contract, which is then enforced by law - but isn't that what this is all about - weather such laws are just or not? I say you can't have an implied contract, and even the EULA's we are all so fond of have not stood up well in court.
You cannot sell me a CD without stipulating the terms of the contract (for listening only, not copying), and then charge me for breaking a term of the contract that didn't exist. This is fraud! - and yet the music industry does this every day.
Physical property imposes restrictions on the conduct of all people in the world, not just those in privity of contract. If that does not invalidate physical property, it must not invalidate IP.
I agree with you that if a seller of IP copies does not make the "no-copying" term known to the buyer, then no contract exists on that term.
However, privity of contract is not required to enforce property rights. A reasonable person can understand that copying a song is a property violation, just as a person can understand that climbing over a fence is a property violation, even without a sign reading "no trespass".
A reasonable person (such as myself) might also come to the conclusion that copying a song IS NOT a property violation. For example, copying a song for personal use is clearly not. Maybe copying it for sharing is, but even that point is debatable. Isn't that what this whole discussion is about - you can't assume the conclusion as a point of fact on your side.
If I were to employ the same sort of argument against you, I would say something like.
A. Students of Mises, Rothbard, etc are the most rational reasonable people around. B. Those students (in majority) reject IP laws C. Reasonable people recognize that copying a song is not a property violation.
I think I'm going to bow out at this point. I am not going to convince you because you get direct benefits from IP laws, and you are not going to convince me because I see fundamental differences in the natures of physical objects and Intellectual objects that make one thing property and the other thing not-property.
1. You did not comment on me speaking about you redefining terms by using Mises test of reality. Does it mean you agree with my assessment of the situation?
2. "If you want to show trespass in copying a wheel invention, you will need to show that the pattern of ideas itself is a consumer good, as discussed repeatedly. If you are successful, then the invention represents the homesteading of new productive capacity, and the copying is trespass, occurring in the act of copying."
A pattern of ideas are not a consumer good. A pattern of ideas are chemicals inside your brain. you cannot sell chemicals from your brain. Consumer goods are things you make using ideas in your brain.
The thing is that each person has a brain capable of replicating using his own resources same chemicals just by looking at physical objects that you made. But at no point in time does he touch your property. At no point in time does he trespass your brain, with its chemicals.
In short, there is no trespass at all. The only demonstrable interaction that occurs is me looking at your wheel - and since you were not forced to make your wheel in line of my sight, it cannot be considered trespass as well. In fact, it is your wheel that makes "trespass", by sending photons into my eye.
So, when we once again reduce everything to proper material manifestations, it becomes unclear how can an invention, a song or any other idea ever be considered property without overriding previous homesteading of material resources.
"Formulate a logical rule for the definition of property, something like "If x is such and such, then x is rightful property." For any word within the rule, provide a definition. Then we will test out your rule."
Hoppe, "Theory of Socialism and Capitalism", chapter 2.
1. Yes, I did, and no, it doesn't. Your deliberate falsehood regarding my statements is trolling, and you have been already been warned.
2. A pattern of ideas can be a consumer good, as evidenced by the fact that people voluntarily contract to buy and sell copies of the pattern.
If property rights in idea patterns is abolished, then contracting for the patterns is abolished. Thus anti-IP wish to dictate what humans may do with their own bodies.
1. I scanned your reply again carefully and I did not see a word addressing my point of redefining terms. I do not think you have any basis for calling me a troll.
2. Yes, Alexander, this is exactly my point - copies can be, not the pattern itself. In a previous comment I see you saying that ideas themselves are a consumer good. I can only again underline that you are not able to make chemicals in your brain a consumer good.
And it so happens that copies are produced using those people's own property, without any demonstrable trespass of your property.
3. Well, it is clear that you and me are reading this approach rather differently.
Thank you for the discussion. It was not a bad one. But you did not convince me that IP is coherent concept.
1. My response about "redefining terms" was, and is:
"This is a conversation about property, therefore it is about law. In a correctly conceived legal system, all legal rights are property rights, and all legal wrongs are property violations."
2. Your position appears to be that only physical matter exists, therefore there IP rights cannot exist. By that "logic", no rights exist. Rights are concepts. Such concepts may exist individually as patterns of electro-chemical reactions in individual brains, but such concepts also exist as common understandings. I've shown how (if you really want to), even these may be conceptualized in the physical realm.
If IP rights cannot exist because such rights are not physical, then no rights exist. (Nihilism).
If property rights exist, and they are not physical, then IP rights can exist, and are not physical.
If property rights exist, and are physical, then IP rights exist, and are physical.
Rights are concepts. Such concepts may exist individually as patterns of electro-chemical reactions in individual brains, but such concepts also exist as common understandings. I've shown how (if you really want to), even these may be conceptualized in the physical realm. "
Yes rights are concepts that are physically and chemically formulated in our brains, but nobody here is trying to say we have PROPERTY rights over these concepts!
We agree that "rights" are concepts just as other ideas are, but you are trying to say here that somehow you can have a justified claim of exclusive dominion over these concepts, whereas the Anti-IP position just says these are non-scarce, POTENTIALLY infinitely reproducible without any damage or theft to other previous and current owners.
Physical "objects" are concepts. There is no such thing as a "house" or a "chair". What's really going on is the interaction of countless sub-atomic particles, which may also manifest as waves of energy, depending on how one attempts to measure anything. Neither you, nor I, nor anyone completely understands "physical reality", and we may never.
Our common understanding of what "objects" and "things" are is wholly dependent on our human ability to conceptualize. I agree with Ludwig von Mises that the correct measure of existence is human relevance, and that is the point of this chapter. By that measure, intellectual objects are just as real as physical objects.
I agree that property rights arise from the scarce and rivalrous nature of useful things. That chapter is not published yet, but here is a sketch:
"Rivalrous" means "use by one interferes with use by another'.
"Usefulness" is wholly subjective. What I find useful you may find useless, and vice versa. Usefulness is another name for "value". The subjective nature of value is key to the Austrian method.
When I create an intellectual object, such as a song, it is an act of homesteading, because I have transformed previously unowned and infinite intellectual raw matter into a useful pattern, just as one homesteads by taking some un-owned raw aluminum from the infinite supply in the earth's crust and transforming it into a bicycle.
The usefulness of the intellectual object is subjective. My use in creating a digital song file is to use is as a factory, and mass-produce copies to sell to people. If you sell copies of my song, you are interfering with my use of my property.
But for my act of transforming resources, the ability to mass-produce copies would not exist.
If you wish to say that my definition of "usefulness" is wrong, then you are trying to impose an objective theory of value. This is the mistake that Adam Smith made, seized upon by Karl Marx, resulting in the doctrine of Communism, the abolition of property rights.
In a way, the Austrian premise that "values are subjective" has been taken too literally. In these "modern" theories, subjectivity is the principle underlying reality, not the way reality is assessed or perceived. Alex, concepts are just abstractions that represent, describe reality, they are just conventions. Don't forget existence exists, whether or not a conscious mind is there to conceptualize it. If you say differently then you must say that there was a consciousness that created this world God. To prove that IP exists you must prove that god exists. Success. Do you believe in squared circles?
Songs exist in the form of soundwaves. But apart from that songs do not exist outside a physical container (the song is part of it). Only things that exist can be owned. Therefor only the physical containers can be owned.
(I think your analysis has another problem, but I’ll save that for after I see how you deal with my objection above.)
You have made the case for “real.” You said nothing to support your conclusion of “ownable.”
“It is true but irrelevant that intellectual objects require physical containers to be delivered. A movie arrives on a DVD or Blu-Ray disc, computer software lives on your hard drive. But this does not mean that only the physical object can be owned, as the IP opponents would have it.”
Shouldn’t you produce an argument or explanation why this is the case? Is the vacuum cleaner story supposed to help me understand why you believe this? I don’t see the connection.
Are you saying “it is real, so it can be owned?” If so, why not own ideas, math, etc.?
Say for the sake of argument that I agree and wish to mend my ways. How would you have me honestly express my confusion regarding the connection between the vacuum cleaner story and the conclusion that I quoted?
I am trying to understand better what it means to condition the outcome of human events.
How about the previous questions? That which is real, can be owned?
Please review the definitions of intellectual space, matter, object, and property I have given them to you previously, and they describe the conditions under which intangible goods are / are not rightful property.
http://homesteadip.liberty.me/2014/05/26/definitions-of-key-terms/
Intellectual object – an ascertainable, temporally stable and bounded pattern of intellectual matter which can condition the outcome of human events
Intellectual property – a non-trivial, homesteaded rivalrous intellectual object that substantially functions as productive capacity
“Non-trivial”, yes, at least some. Not really sure what counts as trivial here.
“Homesteaded”, yes.
“Rivalrous”, yes, IF we use Alexander’s approach (100% of production).
“Intellectual object”, yes.
“Substantially functions as productive capacity”, depends on what we mean by “substantially”?
All production requires the use of numerous ideas. Maybe Alexander should be paying royalties to the heirs of the guy who invented the major scale, etc. Or maybe his non-standard use of the word “rivalrous” is a problem?
http://homesteadip.liberty.me/2014/05/25/the-alleged-case-agains-intellectual-property/
Asking how we separate ideas from songs is like asking how we separate “iron” from “a bicycle factory made of iron”. There is no end to the amount of raw material ( iron or language). By taking the raw material and transforming it into a useful good ( a factory or a song) one has homesteaded, and is the rightful owner of the object created, and rightly made exclude others from its use.
Are you saying ideas are all trivial? Or have unclear borders? Can’t ideas be homesteaded?
“Asking how we separate ideas from songs is like asking how we separate “iron” from “a bicycle factory made of iron”. ”
Okay, so how do we separate “iron” from “a bicycle factory made of iron?”
Why is an idea raw material and not a producer good? Even so, raw materials are also property and can be owned. Ore in the ground can be owned. The factory producer must own the iron used to construct the factory. Why is this analogy more apt that say, a ton of iron and a bicycle factory made of iron?
“There is no end to the amount of raw material ( iron or language).”
Not sure how this is relevant.
“By taking the raw material and transforming it into a useful good ( a factory or a song) one has homesteaded, and is the rightful owner of the object created, and rightly made exclude others from its use.”
Why would this not apply when the resulting useful good is an idea? Ideas are not useful? They are not goods?
Either you’re trolling, or unintelligent. Either way . . .
Individual words and ideas cannot be owned because they are trivial, as I’ve explained. Similarly, some specks of dirt on the bottom of your shoe cannot be owned. They are trivial.
At what point does an object (physical or intellectual) become sufficiently useful enough to warrant property rights? It’s a great question, and applies equally to all forms of property.
The current system assigns ownership of mineral rights before the ore is mined, before anyone knows whether there is anything there or not.
So, what was your point? That ideas are like the infinite iron in existence which you claim is unowned? What about the ideas that have been written down and used to build things or make new ideas or accomplish things or predict things or argue against things? Are you saying that the ideas in Mises’ Human Action, that you used to develop your test, have not been homesteaded?
“Individual words and ideas cannot be owned because they are trivial, as I’ve explained.”
I must’ve missed it. Hmmm, quick google search turns up nothing, a few uses of “non-trivial”. Maybe you can provide a link?
“At what point does an object (physical or intellectual) become sufficiently useful enough to warrant property rights? It’s a great question, and applies equally to all forms of property.”
So calculus is too trivial, unimportant, and useless to bother with, but your songs are not? Geometry? Addition and subtraction? Evolution? The big bang? {brain explodes}
The exact pattern of information that comprises the words of “Human Action” is a homesteaded producer good. Do you see the difference? I can express concepts and ideas about love and forgiveness in a song. Those ideas and concepts are not copyrightable. The exact pattern of words and notes in my song is copyrightable.
You can discuss “Human Action” in your own words. You can write your own book about praxeology. But you can’t copy “Human Action” without permission.
I certainly don’t support statism, but our current system demonstrates that we can make these distinctions. Not perfectly, but well enough. I’m quite sure the free market could do a better job.
It can’t be quite as clear-cut as this, or Harrison would never have lost the “My Sweet Lord/He’s so Fine” lawsuit. You’re not going to let me off the hook if I change only one word, or even all of them, if the music is still recognizable. Do you cut samplers and mash-up artists slack if they use only a part of your pattern and combine it with new patterns?
Is a novel that steals the plot of a previous book plagiarism only if it contains perfectly quoted passages?
Mathematical theorems are often published as exact patterns. Then a new theorem may apply an old theorem as a single step. That step is an abbreviation of the full pattern. In effect, the new theorem contains all of the old theorem, all those steps are required and would have needed to be developed independently if the old theorem did not already exist.
“The concepts conveyed in “Human Action” are raw matter. The exact pattern of information that comprises the words of “Human Action” is a homesteaded producer good. Do you see the difference?”
I see, but does it make sense? I can take the “raw matter” of Mises’s book and make my own, without violating copyright. How much more did Harrison need to change “He’s so Fine” to cross the line to safety?
For just 2 of many examples, look up “Easement” and “Adverse Possession”.
After how many days (weeks, years) does trespassing establish an easement?
Adverse possession must be “open and notorious”. What does that mean?
Can land be abandoned, thus returning to un-owned status? How much time constitutes abandoned? What constitutes “use” of the land anyway?
How much land is allowable for a “setback”? 5 feet? 500 feet? 500 miles?
How deep to land rights go? 5 feet? To the center of the earth?
Etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc
The analogy is building a new structure, partly on your own land, but partly on my land.
Not that it matters, but we don’t actually know how many spatial dimensions exist. Our current best guess is 10 (see string theory).
What counts as the pattern? I could take an MP3 of your song, play it, record the playback, make a new MP3 with bad quality, but still it would be identifiable as your song, so a violation of copyright. But none of the digital encoding in the files will match. Or is that not the pattern that is copyrighted? Is the pattern something I can see, or does it also exist only in intellectual space?
Hard to think of how to do this with a novel. If I went through and paraphrased every sentence in the book, changed Harry Potter to Barry Hotter, and Hogwarts to Warthogs, would it infringe or not? Some authors threaten lawsuits against fan authors who appropriate characters or settings. Hmmm…
You didn’t like the idea of considering an MP3 as a method for reproducing the sound of a performance of a song. But maybe it works better? Instead of copyrighting the MP3 file, you copyright the sound waves produced by the MP3 file? Maybe a frequency analysis of the two recordings would reveal the similarity our minds detect. Of course, that wouldn’t be true for a new recording of a different performance of the song with a different arrangement, though it would still infringe.
Suppose a construction company built a structure and sold it to you, with the understanding that it is engineered to be earthquake resistant. A 5.4 magnitude earthquake occurs 40 miles away, and the structure sustains $100,000 worth of damage. Who is liable for that repair, you or the construction company?
You question whether the structure was or was not built according to specs. Your X-Ray analysis shows a fracture along the 15XJN beam of 5.4 centimeters, and your expert says this proves poor design.
The construction company does ultrasound analysis and shows something else. Their expert says the building was designed well.
OK? We have the same kinds of technical problems with physical property.
The thing that gets copyrighted is a physical object, an MP3, or sheet music, a CD, something like that. The encoding on that physical object identifies one or more objects in intellectual space, depending on whether it infringes or uses samples or whatever. Any physical instance of the song is a projection of the song from intellectual space into real space. Given a song in real space, we can project back into intellectual space and identify the song, songs, or song fragments that it represents.
But the dimensions are still a problem. We could normalize tempo and key, things like that, so that the same song played in a different key and tempo still maps to the same shape. Hm, if I play your song backwards, is that the same shape in intellectual space? Or if I divide it up into time slices and randomize the play order? Should that map to the same shape? Listening to the performance would definitely be a different experience, some ints lost and new things added. So intersecting but not identical.
The intellectual space analogy thus does hold up, as I’ve demonstrated by editing your hypothetical. It is coherent, well thought out, and works well in theory, as well as the real world.
Next.